This week, we have two powerful stories to read, “The Shawl” by Cynthia Ozick, and “The Shawl” by Louise Erdrich. They’re very different stories about people from different cultures, facing very different hardships. However, we can think about them together, and in the context of Beloved, when we think of
- how people react when pushed to their limits
- what holds families together and what drives them apart
- how material objects drive stories, holding both real and symbolic meaning
among other issues that these narratives address. These are some ideas for you to address in this discussion. Please don’t attempt to answer them all–instead, choose one from the list above or another idea that you want to address and write about it in the comments.
Feel free to connect either or both of these stories to texts we read earlier in the semester.
Feel free also to ask questions in the comments that any of us can answer. This is particularly important in Erdrich’s narrative because each time I’ve taught it, students have found it difficult to make sense of it at first, but then come to understand it as we discuss it.
So far, I have only read “The Shawl” by Cynthia Ozick and I gotta say, that was pretty sad in an emotional way. The hardships in this story was clearly worded and I could imagine how things would be since it took place in the era of Nazi Germany. Anyways, based on this story, an existence of one (Magda) held the family together. This bond however is then driven apart due to the extreme conditions they were in which can also answer the first question. With the extreme conditions, Stella’s jealousy towards Magda caused Magda to die in the hands of the Germans (Magda’s shawl was taken away from her and Magda went beserk resulting in a cruel death). So pretty much the existence holds the bond and when that existence is gone, the bond is released thus driving this family apart.
Do you think that the shawl holds all three family members together? Or that Magda does? What is Stella’s relationship with her sister or mother? Is it Stella who drives the family apart? These are obviously impossible circumstances–do we think the story asks us to delve into these questions?
When reading both stories of “The Shawl”, I could see that the authors mention similar things that were mentioned in Beloved. In “The Shawl” by Louise Erdrich, the father mentions to the narrator that he had a sister and that the shawl belonged to his dead sister. The narrator also states to his father to send off the shawl to cloak his dead sister. From this portion of the text, I see this relates to Beloved being Denverâs dead sister. Furthermore, the spirit the narrator (Erdrich) mentions is probably his dead sister that is attached to the shawl. Iâm unsure if this is right because I really could not understand the reading or what was the main point. The only thing I could conclude from the text was that the narrator did not have a good relationship with his father, leading him to fight with him. Another point I want to make is that the narrator had a close connection with his brother and sister, Raymond and Doris. Unlike in “Beloved”, the family was broken apart because of Setheâs milk being stolen. With Setheâs milk stolen, it caused her to kill her daughter, Beloved, and it made her other children fearful of her, which caused two of her children, Howard and Buglar, to run away.
In “The Shawl” by Cynthia Ozick, the author mentions the milk of Stella being giving to Magda. This reminded me of Sethe mentioning the milk that was stolen from her and how she had that milk kept for her baby girl, Beloved. Again, I did not understand this text and could not find the main point of the passage. Therefore, I could not conclude anything. However, I do have questions about the text that needs clarifying. First, I did not understand why Rosa, the sister of Magda, would already know Magda would die. Was Magda suffering a debilitating disease? What is wrong with Magda? (Page 51) What is the significance of the milk in Ozickâs, The Shawl?
I believe Rosa was Magda’s mother. There are several reasons why I believe Rosa knew Magda would die. It was merely by chance she kept on surviving at what appears to be the prison camp where they were. Rosa did not have enough milk because of lack of food and she thought that one of the other prisoners even her other daughter Stella would at some point eat the baby. Also, she knew that her shawl could only protect Magda for so long. She knew that whenever the soldiers found her that it would mean death. She was right. The day Magda was the discovered, the shawl could no longer protect her. The soldier killed her by throwing her onto the the electrical fence surrounding the prison.
Thanks, Nadine, for helping to clarify the plot points of Ozick’s “The Shawl.” Stephanie, does Nadine’s explanation help you understand it better? It’s interesting to me as I think of this short story in relation to Beloved how the mother (Rosa, Sethe) knows, senses, intuits the danger to her children and acts in a way that is logical to her. In the way that everyone questions or doubts Sethe’s choice, do you think Rosa’s choice to get the shawl rather than her daughter could be questioned?
There are so many details from Beloved that you can put in conversation with details from these stories, and you’ve touched on many of them. However, what does everyone else think–can we say that Sethe slashed her daughter’s throat because her milk was taken? I think that’s skipping a few steps–it’s not like Sethe took out her pain and frustration on her daughter following the violation. Instead, we can think of how Sethe cut short her daughter’s life in the face of a system of evil that she could not fight against in another way, and that Rosa, too, had to deprive Magda of the things we take for granted in childhood to protect her from the system of evil that was Nazi soldiers and concentration camps.
In “The Shawl,” by Louis Erdrich, the father of the narrator kept the shawl that belonged to his sister who had been tossed to the wolves by their mother. In keeping the shawl, it seemed to have driven him insane. He was an alcoholic and abusive towards his children. The shawl, a material object, is what drove this story. I believe the shawl reminded the father of his mother who left him behind, and threw his sister out of the wagon to the wolves to save herself. In âThe Shawl,â by Cynthia Ozick, the shawl is another material item that drives the story. I believe it symbolizes life in this story. Iâm not really sure how to put that. Magda first had the shawl, until it was taken away from her by Stella. This is what caused Magdaâs death. When she had the shawl, she was quiet. It was when it was taken away from her, she started to cry. After seeing her dead, Rosa took the shawl a stuffed her mouth with it to hide her screams, so that she remains alive.
Yes, and don’t forget also that the shawl nourished Magda when Rosa’s was no longer producing milk to sustain Magda. That reminded me of how Sethe gave her baby a cloth soaked in sugar water to get her through the journey to Ohio without Sethe. Magda’s shawl wasn’t full of sugar, but it was like nourishing milk. It’s so interesting how it was described in very life-like ways. And interesting comparison to see the shawl in Erdrich’s story as more of a symbol of the sister’s death.
After reading the story “The Shawl”, written by Cynthia Ozick, I realize it had many similar events to the novel Beloved. Both of these stories had disturbing scenes and may be unbearable for some people. In Beloved, the mother killed her daughter to keeping her away from slavery. In the ending of “The Shawl” someone picked up Rosa fifteen month year old daughter Magda as if she was a sack of potatoes and threw her into the electrified gate where she was killed to death. Another thing that I thought of in “The Shawl” that I thought related to “Beloved” was both stories were not able to supply enough breast milk for there daughters. Due to the fact, in “Beloved” Sethe milk was stolen from her, she was not able to give the nutrition her daughter need. In “The Shawl”, they were starving so this did not allow her to produce milk as often as she needed to feed her daughter. In addition, I thought the shawl symbolize protection in order to keep the baby Magda hidden, however jealousy played a role which made the cousin take the shawl for herself. This made the baby visible to society causing Madga her live. She end up going out into the world herself, making sounds saying “Maaa-“. In other words, showing she exists and no longer is secure, opened up into harms way causing her live.
Does anyone want to write about that sound Magda made as she left the barracks and went out into the light in search of the shawl? Thanks, This_is_me for bringing that into our discussion.
I see a common output from both stories, which is the horror and the terrifying events which occurred in both SHAWLS. In âThe Shawlâ by Cynthia Ozick, Magdaâs was victimized and had no control over her safety and health issues. She is a poor little baby. She was sick and weak and dying slowly. Iâm assuming that Rosen didn’t have access to certain benifits in her life to provide the minimum comfort to her little infant. I personally interpret this as a failure caused by the systematic environment. In âThe Shawlâ by Louise Erdrich, the horror was immense and the scene was very sensitive. A mother has thrown her child, disposed her to the wolves and put her little girlâs life in lien to save hers. We can notice her that the cause of the tragedy is the family negligence and its flaw. Figuratively, in both stories, the shawl was the object left from both victims (the babies) behind a tragic events. I do see a pattern about the importance and the effectiveness of the role of FAMILY and SOCIETY in building up strong generations. The culture can be different from place to another but it shouldn’t affect societiesâ health.
Would it be worth our time to consider the choices Rosa, Aanakwad, and Sethe each make as mothers? Do we take their role as mother into account when we judge these characters? If so, what ideas about motherhood do we bring to the conversation–and do we all bring the same understanding?
In Erdrich’s “The Shawl” we are told that:
“she and her husband had argued right up to the last about the children, argued fiercely until the husband had finally given in.”
She had fought for the children and won. When they’re leaving it says,
“…the boy tried to jump into the wagon, but his mother pried his hands off the boards.”
Why did Aanakwad fight for the children only to pry his hands from the wagon when he’s trying to get on?
I understood that her wish was for each parent to take one child, even though the father wanted both of the children.
It’s also important to realize that the father, hurt by his wife and her insistence on taking one child, on leaving him for another man, tells the story through that hurt. He wasn’t there when the daughter fell from the wagon to know whether her mother pushed her–he assumes the worst from her. The son–our narrator–suggests a different story, one that is equally as plausible, but that makes his sister the hero, not a victim. What do you think of his alternate version? What does it make us think of the version he grew up hearing?
I think that experiences hold people and relationships together. Whenever people go through something traumatic together it usually binds them together in a negative or positive way. Loss is something, when experienced, that can hang over a person and shape their choices, interactions, and outlook on life as it did for Rosa, Stella and Magda in “The Shawl” by Cynthia Ozick. The defeat that they felt shaped their thoughts and actions. Rosa’s reaction to when the solider threw Magda onto the electric fence was a silent scream and reaction. To not be able to vocalize and carry out pain in the way one needs to be able to grieve is what can make trauma and healing that much more difficult. I felt the same in reading “The Shawl” by Louise Erdrich. The father’s pain that he felt as a child and the abandonment that he felt from his mother and the loss of his sister shaped his life and his whole international with his own children manifested into anger and pain that he took out on them, maybe without evening knowing that he was making them feel loss in the way he did.
“We survived off him as if he were a capricious and dangerous line of work. I suppose we stopped thinking of him as a human being, certainly as a father.”
I think both stories, as well as “Beloved” deal with the pain that people can carry and how they use it as a shawl themselves. Healing is not as easy as it may seem, it can also be painful because it partly means to let go and move on.
Great point about the figurative shawl. In both Beloved and Erdrich’s “The Shawl,” we see the healing that comes with time and the support of people who have been there, or have experienced its repercussions. In Ozick’s “The Shawl,” though, we do not get the distance from the trauma to see any healing. The shawl is still quite literally the thing that keeps Rosa alive by absorbing her scream. She has yet to feel any figurative shawl, and we can see that Stella is in no place to offer her comfort, nor is anyone else in the camp.
For the time being I have only read âThe Shawlâ by Cynthia Ozicka which is a story that presents the raw side of hardships at that time and age. In this story we found a mother, Rosa, with her two daughters Madga and Stella, all starving. This story showed the courage that a mother had for her children and the lengths she went to protect them. In the end, Rosa’s most priced possession, Magda, was taking from her through jealousy and neglect by her eldest daughter. The story centered around a blanket called the Shall which kept Magda alive which she clung to for support and comfort. Through jealously the shall was taken and through this action, Rosa could not save her child from the world that awaited outside of the Shall.
Although Rosa tried to save Magda and couldn’t, what role do you see Stella playing in the story? She takes the shawl, but do we fault her for that? Do we see her as responsible for Magda’s death? As culpable for it?
The story entitled, “The Shawl,” by Cynthia Ozick , “The Shawl” by Louise Erdrich” and “Beloved by Toni Morrison,” all have a common theme. All three plot comprised of the killing of a child. The narrator in the story by Ozick explained that the mother knew death for the child Magda would come. The mother, because of her strong love for her baby planned ways to try to give away the baby before death occurred in the prison camp. She knew there were many ways that Magda could die. She could starve because she was not getting enough breast milk, die from illness, eaten by hungry prisoners including her own sister or killed by the soldiers. In “The Shawl,” by Erdrich and “Beloved,” both child died at the hands of the mother. Both child were sacrificed by their mother. Aanakwad threw her daughter to the wolves to save herself from being killed by the wolves before she reunited with the man she truly loved. Sethe killed her daughter with a handsaw to avoid reuniting with a life of slavery.
In the story by Erdrich the brother kept the shawl of her dead sister unwilling to let her go. In Beloved Denver willingly played with the dead baby ghost of her sister and feared losing Beloved when she reincarnated because she too was unwilling to let go of the dead.
When pushed to the limit people make decisions that under normal circumstances would be irrational to them. In all these stories we see that love holds family together and at the same time tears them apart. In Ozich story, Rosa loved Magda so much she was willing to give her to strangers so she could stand a chance of staying alive outside the prison camp. In “Beloved” Sethe loved her daughter so much she risk her life and that of her unborn child Denver to reunite with her children. Yet it was her love for her children that gave her the strength to kill one and attempt to kill the others to avoid them knowing and feeling what she did and felt as a slave. In, “The Shawl,” by Erdrich, Aanakwad husband loved his family so much he was willing to continue loving his wife although she had bear a child for another man. When he saw how unhappy life for Aanakwad was with him he loved her enough to arrange her journey to the man she loved.
Thank you for bringing love into the conversation. There are other aspects of love that we can understand here, too–that the daughter’s love for Aanakwad and her siblings made her sacrifice herself, that the father’s love for his daughter and his pain from her death made him see only one possible story for her demise. We can also think about Sethe’s love for her children and how she doesn’t want for them the estranged relationship she had with her own mother, whom she loved but wasn’t able to be with in her conscious life. As I’ve suggested in other comments in this discussion, we might want to consider what love Stella had, either for her mother or for her sister.
In the reading “the Shawl” written by Cynthia Ozick, it is very similar to the the book Beloved. These two stories show suffering in their era. In the Book Beloved Sethe Killed her daughter thinking she was better off dead than dealing with Slavery. Then in the Shawl the 15 month old baby was killed in a horrible way, also she was thrown in to the electrical fence. In the “Shawl” by Louis Erdrich the mother toss her daughter to the wolves. The family was broken from the beginning with cheating and outside children. The abusive as a child and alcoholism. May things link within all three stories from the breadth milk being stolen to not having enough breast milk. In the Shawl by Erdrich the father was hurt by his wife actions with the children the same was Sethe felt towards her husband disappearance. What holds families together is hard work and love. I feel that Mother have to be really at that breaking point or hopeless point to take the action that these mothers took. What destroys families are jealousy and infidelity.
âThe Shawlâ by Cynthia Ozick, and âThe Shawlâ by Louise Erdrich were both great reads with strong messages in them that are similar to Beloved. I specifically liked “The Shawl” by Louise Erdich because of the way there are two stories within the one. This definitely resounded to me like Beloved did in that a story never ends. Like slavery, the narrator’s sister dying lives on from generation to generation. Even though his sister died, he is deeply affected by it and because of that, it also affects his children as well.
People react irrationally when pushed to their limits. This can be seen in both “The Shawl” as well as in “Beloved”. When Stella was pushed to the limits of her hardship in the time she was living in, she did not care about her sibling. She looked at Magda as an escape from her hunger, as an obstacle from her happiness.
I loved the way the son interpreted the death of his father’s sister. What break someone is just a thought that they’re too stubborn to give up. When looking at it another way, it makes sense but it could also change everything that they thought in the past. When thinking that the father’s sister was only pushed to the limit to save her family, the father may be more willing to let go of the shawl, to live his life normal again.
“The Shawl” by Louis Erdrich and “Beloved” by Toni Morrison, are similar in a way. For example in “The Shawl” , the narrator’s father told him that he used to have a little sister,but she died because her mother threw her into the pack of hungry wolves as his father’s father told him. The narrator then explains so his father, maybe she wasn’t thrown off, maybe she jumped herself. She jumped into the pack of hungry wolves in order to save you from them. This shows the love between brothers and sisters, that she loved him so much that she would give her life up for him.
This is also seen in “Beloved” , but in a different way. Sethe loves her children so much that she would do anything for them. She tries to kill them in order to protect them. Her love is so strong that she would bear living the rest of her life knowing she murdered her own kids for the sake of their freedom. She wanted to end their lives in order to prevent them from living a horrible one.
The Shawl by Cynthia Ozick and The Shawl by Louise Erdrich have different endings yet are have similarities. Both children are symbols of sacrifice and the only thing that they left behind for their loved ones is the shawl. I cried laughed and smiled in that order in the Shawl by Louise. Too many families are torn apart. Children are separated from their families because someone thinks it’s for the best in the case it was the worst decision. A decision that Sethe had to make. Sending her children ahead to 124. It worked for her but eventually she had to used Beloved as a sacrifice. Sadly when you love someone you have to make hard decisions. Magda died because her mom wanted to give her what she loved most, the sister died in order to save her sister and mother regardless if she was tossed or jumped herself, Beloved was killed to protect her and spare her from living in slavery.