With the midterm behind us, we can begin looking forward to Spring Break. In the intervening week beforeĀ Spring Break, weĀ willĀ begin reading and discussing Toni Morrison’s 1987 novel,Ā Ā Beloved.Ā Remember to get your copy: ISBN 978-1400033416. The City Tech bookstore still has copies, or you can find it in any bookstore. Look online if you want a used copy–you should be able to find one for only a few dollars. We have several weeks devoted to our discussion of Morrisonās acclaimed novel, and weāll use the time to consider how our study of fiction can apply to a longer text, how we can bring research into our examination of the novel, and can even consider film within our study of narrativesāall really exciting opportunities.
By next Wednesday, April 1, please read through page 100. If you want to get started before you have a copy of the book, you might start readingĀ here, but I expect you to have a copy of the book that you can mark up in class. In case you start there, our reading for the week ends approximately halfway through Part 1 with the words “‘That’s pretty, Denver. Real pretty.'”Ā You can use the find function to locate the end point for the week.
For our discussion (due Sunday night, 3/29), there are so many directions we can go, and collectively we can cover a lot of material if we don’t duplicate each other’s comments but instead build on each other’s comments or move the discussion in a new direction. If your comment contributes to what someone else has added, please reply to that comment so we begin to group together like topics. To get started, let’s each choose something from the list below to focus on:
- setting
- location
- time
- social or cultural situation
- characterization
- who are the characters? focus on one to bring them into our discussion
- narration
- who is the narrator?
- is the narrator consistent throughout these chapters?
- imagery
- what descriptive language helps you visualize the story?
- do you see symbolic meaning in the descriptions?
- themes
- choose a theme that has begun to emerge and trace it in the story so far
- do any of the themes connect to our previous readings?
- quotations
- are there any passages that stand out to you that you want to bring to the class’s attention?
- questions
- what questions do you have for clarification?
- what questions do you have to move our discussion forward?
So far, Ive read the first chapter. The story is set in Cincinnati, Ohio in the year 1873. Sethe, who was a former slave, is the protagonist and is living with her daughter, Denver. I’m having a hard time figuring out the narrative point of view. At first it seemed like it’s third person omniscient.
So far I’ve read only the first chapter based on what I read, I can agree with you on your thought regarding the narration style. We can obviously tell that it’s third person due to the lack of I’s and the lack of a clear secondary character for narration. So that leaves us with the 2 different types of third person narrations; limited and omniscient. I’d say it’s omniscient because the narration isn’t limited to just one character (Sethe). This is because we can see the thoughts of other characters like Denver and Paul D.
Great collaborating, Damany and Alday1211. Can someone else find examples for us that show the narrator conveying different characters’ thoughts?
We see into all the main characters thoughts and feelings.
When Sethe and Paul D were talking about Denver’s father, we hear Denver thinking about her mother and Paul.
” They were a twosome, saying “Your daddy” and “Sweet Home” in a way that made it clear both belonged to them and not to her.”
and
“..she wished for the baby ghost-”
We also hear some of Paul’s thoughts when he was first talking to Sethe.
“He was proud of her and annoyed by her. Proud she had done it; annoyed that she had not needed Halle or him in the doing.”
We even see into Baby Suggs thoughts in the second paragraph, when she is thinking about her grandsons. All these in addition to Sethe’s feelings, show us the it is in fact 3rd person omniscient.
Can you or someone else think about what is significant about the story being set in Ohio, and in 1873? These details will start to be more important as we understand more about the story, but if we have anyone among us who is knowledgeable about American history, we might start thinking of what these details can suggest to us. For example, when was slavery abolished in relation to the start of the story?
Another question about setting that you or someone else might write about: what do we know about the house itself? That’s further information about the setting that certainly matters in the novel.
The setting of this story is in Cincinnati, Ohio in the year 1873. This was the time after the Civil War and the abolishment of slavery. On page 21, the last paragraph, āIt took him a while to realize that his legs were not shaking because of worry, but because the floorboards were and the grinding, shoving floor was only part of it. The house itself was pitching. Sethe slid to the floor and struggled to get back into her dress.ā This house is haunted by Setheās daughter.
I also believe it is third person omniscient because the Narrator so far has given information about the thoughts and feelings of various characters. Readers have been giving insight into the thoughts and feelings of Sethe, Denver, Paul D, Beloved and also some of the minor characters such as the men at Sweet Home. Information provided by the narrator is also from various places.
So far, i have read only chapter one and the theme of the book at the start seems kind of darkish. Seathe and her daughter been living in a house that is haunted by her first born. They also mentioned that they lived with Seathe mother-in-law till she died 8 years ago. Only the Dead Know Brooklyn would be a reading that can be compared to this because they both have ghosts in the story.
Some of the stories we have read so far has dealt with issues of confinement. In this story Sethe has confined herself and her family to this house that is dangerously haunted. Even after her mother-in-law, Baby Suggs died and all her children except Denver had left she still continued to live in the house at 124. Despite the fact that she and Denver were somewhat ostracized by the people in town she still felt she had to stay. It was as if she felt some obligation to the dead baby to remain in that house.
Thanks for bringing in the element of these characters’ relationship to the area where they live. This is an important aspect of the setting, since they are removed from others physically. It’s also an important aspect of their characterization, since they are marked as different and ostracized for their behaviors.
I have read some about the house that Sethe and her daughter Denver live in is haunted by a ghost whom they believe to be Setheās two years old daughter who was killed by Sethe rather to be recaptured and send back to Sweet Home, which was the farm where she was a slave. The haunting of the house often involves pool of pulsing red and undulating light at the door and objects being thrown around the room.
We can consider some of this information as relating to setting: Sethe was a slave at Sweet Home; they live in a haunted house. But considering these elements as aspects of the setting, as I have just done, would that tell us what we really need to understand about what happened, and how the story is told?
Beloved by Toni Morrison needs deep thinking of its different scenes in order to well understand the authorās message. The story took place in a house in the wood. A house haunted by babiesā soul. The world was a bit twisted that time. According to our stories that we have read throughout the first half of the semester, they are entirely fiction and involve unreal images that canāt be true or applied to the real world except from the metaphorical point of view. Where Beloved is a novel of fiction that talks about slavery, black and white history. At the same time, part of the novel talks about haunted house and ghosts. We can notice that part of it can be real and it was experienced that time, for instance, slavery and dehumanizing people were common and spread out across the country. The main character of Beloved was Seethe and her daughter Denver, the mother who is raised motherless in a slavery system where she had such a harsh life and she has been abused and mistreated by her surroundings. The story was told in third person narration and it took place in Ohio, 1873. If we look at the time frame of slavery in Ohio, it was abolished by the state on 1802. The story was written shortly after abolishing slavery. It has a huge impact on the story and the people lived after this date. I think this impact was generated by the traces left by the slavery system, even though slavery was over but it still has influence on peopleās thinking and behavior that time.
Knowing that slavery was abolished in Ohio in 1802 is a good bit of background. The novel was written in 1987, so not shortly after slavery was abolished, either in Ohio or in the US. When was slavery abolished throughout the US? Do you mean that the story takes place shortly after slavery was abolished in Ohio? In the US? Since we have so many flashbacks in the story, it’s hard to pinpoint when the story is, but we can aim to create a timeline.
Can anyone pinpoint Cincinnati, Ohio on a mental map of the US in the late 19th century? It’s significant to the story being told, but if you don’t have a sense of its geography, you might miss the importance of that setting detail.
Beloved was written long after slavery was abolished in Ohio. I meant that the story and its events took place right after the abolition of slavery. Sethe has lived within and after the slavery. That had an impact and her life and she kept always thinking the same way she used to while living the slavery time.
So far, I read about Sethe having her youngest daughter, Baby Suggs, dying eight years ago. I was confused at first by the language (style) of the text, but after I reread the chapters that I read and the foreword, I got a better understanding of the text. I realized the protagonist, Sethe, was in the present setting of a plantation (Sweet Home) but she kept bringing up the bad memories of what happened to her at Sweet Home. From what I have read, I see that Sethe is slave woman that had four children, Buglar, Howard, Denver, and Baby Suggs. Buglar and Howard was taken from and Baby Suggs died while she was pregnant with Denver. I am unsure about what happened in the scene where Sethe is saying they “beat her with cowhide and took her milk” (Page 20). Does this mean that at the plantation she was at they forbid her from having children? If she did have children, did that make the owner of the plantation take Sethe children as a form of property? Also, in chapter one, Paul D visits Sethe but later rapes her. Was Paul D one of the men that was in charge in Sweet Home? Is Paul D white or Black? I ask these questions because Denver states at the end of chapter one that “her mother was upstairs with the man (Paul D) who had gotten rid of the only other company (Baby Suggs) she had” (Page 23). Also, Denver, walked in her mother getting raped by Paul D and she just took the biscuits that she was cooking, while she was getting raped, and went back in her room as if nothing even happened (Page 20-23). This makes think that this is not the first time she has seen this happen to her mother.
Another point I want to make is that the story is being told in the third person limited narration. The narrator is only limited to Sethe’s thoughts.
Furthermore, when Denver was crying to Sethe about the house (Page 17), I believe she witnessed the horrible things that haunted her mother’s memories.
Just a few points of clarification and correction:
*Baby Suggs is Denver’s grandmother, not her sister.
*We never learn the deceased baby’s name. She is referred to as Beloved, but if we pay close attention we can conclude that this isn’t her actual name–or at least this is how I understand the passage on page 5 about engraving the tombstone.
*Paul D is not raping Sethe–they do have sex, though. When you asked about a rape scene, I thought you were referring to that passage on page 5.
You argue that the narration is third person limited, but others have argued third person omniscient. Does anyone want to jump in with evidence to support the claim for third person limited?
The reason I think that Sethe was raped by Paul D is because when Denver “burst from the keeping room,” with terror in her eyes” (Page 21), Paul D states “God damn it! Hush up!” “Paul D was shouting, falling, and reaching for anchor. A table rushed toward him and he grabbed its legs. Somehow he managed to stand at an angle and, holding the table by two legs, he bashed it about, wreaking everything, screaming back at the screaming houseā¦” (Page 22). Also, it states that Paul D was whipping the table around (Page 22). This implied to me that Paul D was inappropriately touching Sethe and forcefully pushing himself on Sethe’s body because in the text it does states that he just goes and take one of her breast while she is making biscuits. Another point I want to make is that, I still have not seen where the author is in the mind of other characters. Maybe if I read more, I will see third person omniscient but so far I see the author in the mind of Sethe only or maybe I am not reading this text right because as previously stated I have difficulty understanding the style (voice).
In the beginning of the story Beloved by Toni Morrison we find a tale of a woman who faced unbelievable trials and tribulations but whose journey has just began. In the initial stages of the story we find three character of high significance: Baby Suggs, Sethe, Denver, along with an unseen guest. The story continues to describe a past filled with suffering and tears which not many of their pairs or children survived. Even though the entire reading has not been completed, Sethe out of all sets herself above the rest with the essence of her strength down to her will to survive against all odds. Sethe, with only a daughter out of two left to protect presents herself as a worrier that refuses to lose another battle by any means. The plot later shifts when Sethe encounters an old friend, Paul D. whose presence alone allowed her to find no need in wielding a weapon. As the story continues we can see that as strong a Sethe may have been, the support of her friend Paul D. helped her mentally and strengthened her physical more than she had anticipated, not to mention the support received by her daughter. Even though I have not completed the initial chapter the narratorās characterization of Sethe impresses me and draws me in further to see how the rest of her life shall unfold. In fact, as a simple prediction I am expecting Sethe to be the foundation of support for Paul D. himself and am sure they will only complement each otherās strength and continue to grow together.
Gav picks up here on Sethe’s strength. Panama wrote about her many hardships. What do we want to say about both the difficulty of her experience and the strength she shows in spite of it?
I wonder if it makes it easier to read about the difficult, heartbreaking experiences knowing that Sethe is so strong. What does everyone think?
In the story “Beloved”, the author uses literary technique of flashbacks in order to present the reader with the events from Cincinnati and Sweet Home. I believe that the story is written in many different narration styles. In the beginning it starts off as third person omniscient,” 124 WAS SPITEFUL. Full of a baby’s venom. The women in the house knew it and so did the children.” As you continue to read the story, the author would state something in third person limited, ” Baby Suggs didn’t even raise her head. From her sickbed she heard them go but that wasn’t the reason she lay still. ” Another part of the story, Toni Morrison uses first person, ” Four taken, four chased, and all, I expect, worrying somebody’s house into evil.” BabySuggs rubbed her eyebrows. ” My first-born. All I can remember of her is how she loved the burned bottom of bread. Can you beat that? Eight children and that’s all I remember.” She slightly goes back and forth between these narrations, which can be hard to recognize in her writing technique. When you read the story you are able to see other characters point of view at times.
So far I have read the first three chapters. I have to admit that I had to reread the first chapter over again because I felt that I wasn’t grasping what was going on. I’m an avid reader and finish books quite quickly, and must say that its been awhile since I read a book that I had to read slowly and carefully… I think this story is being told in third person omniscient because we get the thoughts of all the characters and not just that of the main character Sethe. The story takes place after the Civil War in Ohio after the abolition of slavery. Seth escaped Sweet Home, a plantation, in which she was a slave about eighteen years earlier. She was pregnant with her daughter, Denver, at the tine of her escape. She also had three other children, two boys and one daughter, Beloved, who has died and haunts house 124 on Bluetstone Road. One thing that I was a bit confused about was whether Sethe killed Beloved or not? Who cut her child’s throat?
Sethe and Denver live in the haunted house alone after both her sons leave and her mother in law, Baby Suggs died. Paul D, a former slave from Sweet Home, shows up at her doorstep and she seems to be happy about it, but Denver does not. I seem to find Denver’s character quite interesting, she seems like a young child but is a teenager at this point in the book. Her attachment to her mother, and her confinement make her somewhat of an old soul as you get into her thoughts. Her character is frustrated and sad, but yet hopeful in a way. She is frustrated by Sethe and Denver’s interaction and how she can’t leave this home that is haunted and that is inhibiting her life in many ways because her mother deals with her own scars and promises she won’t leave anywhere again, and can’t recognize what her own fears and issues may be doing to her daughter. The passage that stuck out to me was from Denver
“Denver’s imagination produced its own hunger and its own food, which she badly needed because loneliness wore her out. Wore her out. Veiled and protected by the live green walls, she felt ripe and clear, and salvation was as easy as a wish.”
Also, what does it mean when Paul D refers to Sethe as iron eyed?
“Sethe was thirteen when she came to sweet home and already iron eyed.”
I look forward to reading, and hopefully, finding the book easier to get through.
As i started to read Beloved i found myself rereading pages. she went from past to present without letting us know. i was lost. Which reminded me of Jane from “The Yellow Wall-Paper”. well that was until i got into the 30’s i understood. Sethe mostly lives reflecting her past. i still havent figured out which character is the narrartor. I’m leaning towards Beloved but im not too sure. we also get into the minds of characters.
Finally caught up with the novel Beloved!! It definitely gets a lot more clearer as the story proceeds, but it also helps to go back and reread the first part of the story again. This is because Sethe is confining herself as Nadine pointed out above. It is hard to understand the story and the character when the character is confining herself and her memories. But as the story proceeds and she opens up to her past and to herself, the readers are also able to peek into the reality of her life as a slave.
This is a story where you need to really sit down in a quiet place and read it slowly to understand. I had to reread the first couple of pages a few times in order to understand the specific details that Toni Morrison is trying to show the readers.
I want to bring into focus the character of Sethe. The experiences that Sethe had can be thought of as outrageous, unbelievable, and terrible in the eyes of the reader but I do not feel like it was portrayed that way in the narration. At least it is not terrible for herself. She always explains it as terrible for her children. She had her milk stolen by the men of the farm. Her milk is something for her children, it’s as if they have stolen a part of her that is solely for her children. When Toni explains the murder of her children in the story, she tries to kill her children to prevent them from living the terrible life she had. But to her it wasn’t a lack of motherly love… To her, it was because of her abundance of motherly love.
Another example that stuck with me was when she gave ‘ten minutes for seven words’.
She said it, or I read it as if it was a nonchalant kind of thing. The only thing she worried about was how it raged her dead daughter.